TAMI: All right, Shauna. So we're here today to talk about candid content and what authenticity can do for people. So why don't you give everybody a little overview of who you are, what you do? Yeah. 

SHAUNA: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. I'm super excited to talk about this authenticity is paramount to my personal and company values as well.

SHAUNA: So love that we get a chance to kind of geek out nerd out on all of the good marketing stuff and content strategy. But my name is Shauna Knuckles. I am based in Austin, Texas. So I am sitting in my home office right now. where I work from most of the time. I own and run a company called Advocation. We are in operations consultancy for PR, marketing, digital, creative agencies, kind of anything under that sphere.

SHAUNA: And we really come in and help establish a more secure. Stabilize and standardized operational structure for agencies, decreasing their day to day stress and hopefully increasing their profit margins. 

TAMI: Awesome. That sounds like, um, really high level, confusing work to me as a, an agency owner trying to be profitable.

TAMI: It's, it's needed and you don't realize, yeah, you don't realize you need it until all of a sudden you're not profitable until you're not 

SHAUNA: profitable or you wake up one day and you realize I really don't like the job I've created for myself. We often hear that from a lot of the agencies we work with. And it is, there's a lot of nuances.

SHAUNA: Agencies are very complicated businesses to run, but we have. established a handful of frameworks that really help us pinpoint what exactly is going on diagnosing the right challenges so that we can shortcut the amount of time it takes to create some of those big lasting changes and just make it a little bit less complicated for our team too.

TAMI: Yeah. Awesome. When you said that you often hear that people have created a job that they don't necessarily like anymore. I resonate with that. One of the examples of candid posts that I give when I'm talking about it is the post where I was like, I, I built a house I don't want to live in. I don't want this to be this big digital marketing agency.

TAMI: I feel like I'm adding to the noise of social media, just, you know, pushing content, push content to meet my deliverables and I need to pivot. So hence Candid Content was born from that pivot. So it kind of brings us to this whole, you know, conversation around why authenticity is important. And I think what I love about talking to people who have created or consumed This type of content, it's really life changing too.

TAMI: Like it creates communities that you might not have been expecting. It creates real relationships. Like you and I wouldn't know each other if it wasn't for social media. And we found ourselves in a couple different circles together. And it's just kind of fun to have relationships. On the internet and maybe never have seen in person, but I would consider you a friend of mine and have a drink with you if we ever had the opportunity.

TAMI: Absolutely. So you sent over an article that you had written in, I think, June of 2020. 

SHAUNA: Yes. 

TAMI: And this is what we had talked about when you're like, Oh, I wrote, I wrote a piece of candid content and it, you know, it's given you some speaking opportunities and made you a really bold voice. in the PR industry.

TAMI: Why don't you tell us a little bit about what that article was and why, why you think it's important that people create pieces of content similar. 

SHAUNA: Yeah, so I'm putting myself back like Thinking back to the place I was in, the, my exact shoes that I was in when I wrote that article. And if anyone can remember a few years ago where we were in June of 2020, you might be able to surmise what this article is about.

SHAUNA: And before I dig into the exact topic or kind of why and what I wrote about in the aftermath of writing this article, I do want to share just candidly using that word invulnerably, like what I was feeling and experiencing before this piece of content poured out of me. And I think that other folks can probably relate to where you write a piece of content and you're developing it, not for the purpose that we typically hear.

SHAUNA: around best practices for developing content. I didn't write it to promote my business. I didn't write it to promote my thought leadership. There were no goals or KPIs that were attached to my desire and real like human need to put this piece of content out in the world. I it was like burning inside of my body and I wrote it on a Saturday morning sitting down with a cup of coffee and it truly just like felt electrified like coming out of my fingertips and I did have that almost like, uh, should I not post this?

SHAUNA: Is this just for my private collection content that never sees the light of day? And Now, thinking back on that, any time I put together a piece of content, whether it's a talk, whether it's a podcast interview, even just a social media post, I do find myself having that almost like, like internal cringe moment of, do I really hit send on this?

SHAUNA: And I think that that really resonates with other people, because in my eyes, I think that I'm like capturing something that describes the real human experience that we're all maybe having an experiencing behind closed doors. So That's a little bit of like the backstory, taking you back to the place I was and, uh, how that content really came to life.

SHAUNA: But the exact article that I wrote, I, I believe the exact title was how the PR industry Can Be Anti-Racist. Yep. And I wrote it from the lens of my personal experience working inside of the industry, but then also my. my like real back story of even becoming a professional or how I kind of grew up in this world and married those two points of view together.

SHAUNA: So, um, this has been something that's been a huge piece of my life, uh, for as long as I can remember since middle school, high school, um, talking about anti racism and, uh, how we can really make a difference in the world around how we show up as allies, um, to different people of color. And the reason for that is I grew up in the, uh, neo Nazi capital of the world at the time, the birthplace of the Aryan nations, which I don't, I don't really like to shout from the rooftops, but I got a front row seat to what it really looked like.

SHAUNA: Not necessarily. People who were actively overtly racist, but what it looked like when people were apathetic and really didn't take a proactive strong stand against that type of behavior. 

TAMI: And then people, people weren't using their influence to navigate and you sort of change or make change or. 

SHAUNA: Exactly.

SHAUNA: Yeah, that's, I think that's a real big underlying theme to my personal point of view. And also what I relate in this article is from what I see in my experience, the, all of the different things that we've been talking about for years in terms of making changes, improvements, movements on this topic is not necessarily because people are overtly Racist.

SHAUNA: It's because people are apathetic and not taking a stand, not paying attention, not using their influence like we just talked about to make a change. And that is what I saw firsthand in where I grew up. And As another layer in lens to that, I have been in an interracial relationship for almost 15 years now with a black man.

SHAUNA: So these two worlds intersecting of like, I see how bad it can be. And then I also see his point of view, what he faces day to day across every area of his life The corporate world to walking into a store in a small town and what his reality is. I had this aha moment where, um, this had always been something that I was passionate about, talked about, but I never really gave myself credit for having an important point of view that was needed to be shared.

TAMI: And 

SHAUNA: I 

TAMI: think, you know, just to stop you for a second, I think this is where. A lot of this like catalyst of change is going to come from us when we all take our personal point of views with that, you know, carry a lot of empathy because we've either lived it or we've witnessed it and say something like take a position and talk about what they see or what they, you know, if they have solutions that maybe could, could help, it's, it's those, those people that have the courage to, Or the audacity or whatever, however you want to say it to do that is what creates this type of content that I'm talking about, like the content, like you, you coming up, you know, bringing up that courage to write this, this article has, was, um, it took something 

SHAUNA: different.

SHAUNA: You're spot on of just whatever word works for you internally, if it's courage or, uh, just bravery, whatever it is. I think, agree, and I would call, I would call this a big catalyst moment for me personally and also within my business and what I was willing to talk about, not just publicly, because it's not like I was hiding this as a point of view.

SHAUNA: Anyone who knew me knew that this was my perspective, but at that point I was still pretty Fresh and new in my own journey as a business owner and for me to plant my flag in the ground and say, Hey, this is what I stand for. And this is what I believe in. And also here's my perspective, my advice to navigate the situation.

SHAUNA: If you're finding yourself in it, I think was very, it was very powerful for me. It felt, it felt empowering. And on top of that, I, I really also. believe that they're that moment of cringe factor, like we talked about previously, like, I'll even I'll look back and read this article every once in a while. And my advice would probably change now, as I've evolved as I've become a little bit more sophisticated in my ability to communicate and advise on business best practices.

SHAUNA: But there's just something so special and raw about getting it out. Um, that really, really acts as that, you know, catalyst moment, like we've talked about. 

TAMI: Yeah. So, okay. Take us back June, 2020. I live in Minnesota. So I know what you might be referencing, um, in addition to COVID, but this was a, There was, there was a lot of angst and energy and hate and just, it was, it was a lot.

SHAUNA: It was a lot. It was a lot. Um, so the timing of this article came out, I think a week or two after, after, um, the tragedy happened with George Floyd. And at that time, what I was experiencing in my professional and personal network was this conversation of. Oh shit, we need to wake up and pay attention to what is actually going on in this country in regards to race relations.

SHAUNA: And I personally felt pretty angry just to be totally transparent and honest with you at what was happening in the country, but also at the response that I was from my professional network, um, largely because It had not occurred to me that people were that asleep, just to be totally, totally transparent that there were individuals who I knew who I am friends with, who were not like as dialed into what was actually going on and in regards to racism in the country.

SHAUNA: And. I stayed mad for a few days. I'm not gonna lie. And then I really had this aha moment where I told myself I could channel this into something that was more productive than just being angry. And I don't know if any anyone recalls the conversations that were happening at that time, but there was a lot of dialogue around, hey, this is not the time to go to your black and brown friends and say, like, how can I as a white person do better to support you?

SHAUNA: How can I make a change and make a difference? Um, which is a big burden for them. For them, for anyone who has been marginalized in our society to then do the emotional labor and the thinking around what it's going to take to change that. If you really take a step back and think about that, it's, it's actually almost cruel to put that on someone who is being marginalized by our society.

SHAUNA: And I really felt like there was a unique place for me to step in and almost serve as. a bridge to that gap where I Clearly i'm not a person of color, but I am immersed and emerged in The culture being partnered with someone who has that background and also because i've just really cared for a very long time and Putting that article article together just with some very practical tangible pieces of advice in terms of how I've navigated making changes in my career, what I've spoken up about, um, what I have facilitated in terms of change in the different organizations I've worked with or worked within.

SHAUNA: I, uh, shared that advice with my community. And it really gave people a starting point to then, I think, turn those into their own ideas, or at least feel like they had a starting point that was backed in some experience to draw from. 

TAMI: Well, and what I, so you took us, you took PR industry and here, I think you could give five tips on how people can think differently about their position as a PR professional and how.

TAMI: You know, PR professional, marketing professionals, any sort of communications professional really has an influence in what we create and put out there that will likely lend to someone's view of something. So how can we, and this is a huge part of the candid content discussion is how can we take personal responsibility for what we're posting?

TAMI: and making sure that it, you know, it, it is authentic, which means that it embodies my values as a creator. Right. And you clearly did that in this, in this article. What I, what I'm curious now about your, you mentioned that, you know, you might give different advice now in the five steps, whatever, but I'm wondering a lot of people that I meet with, a lot of leaders, Are hesitant about the word authentic content or authenticity because, or, or even like going a step deeper vulnerability, specifically female leaders don't want to be vulnerable online because they feel that they will be seen as, um, a lesser professional, like they won't be looked at as professional as they want to be seen if they're, if they're a little bit more vulnerable.

TAMI: And I'm wondering as a PR consultants and working with so many different leaders, Like, do you have advice for people on a line, like, how do you walk the line of being truly authentic and vulnerable and still, you know, keeping a level of professionalism? 

SHAUNA: I do because I have the same thought. I wonder if it's being a female leader or just a leader of in general because it's our responsibility to also take care of the health of our, our business and in this day and age, cancel culture is a real thing.

SHAUNA: I think that there's a lot of fear and, um, hesitation that comes with that. Desire to be authentic as well. And the mindset that I take on this is I'm, I'm not a billion dollar corporation. I don't need to sign every single client, every single business that walks into my sphere. We don't have growth trajectory to, you know, be the type of company that owns the planet.

SHAUNA: So that is a reassurance for me in that. There's room for everyone to succeed and find the clients that align with you from a values perspective. And that's where I have always told the line of, I don't need our clients to believe every single thing I believe, but we do need to be aligned from of a fundamental values perspective for them to even get value out of the work that we're doing because the way that I think and the values that I've set with our business align with the way that I think as a person.

SHAUNA: And so a piece, uh, this content, for example, I think a value that's woven in throughout all of it is that we take care of people. We take care of. Of the people inside of our agency, we create operational best practices that take care of the people inside of that firm. And if you are in a situation where you maybe need to prioritize profit over the people that you work with, you're probably not going to be aligned to work with us as a company.

SHAUNA: And for, for me, just standing. Standing firmly and knowing that what I put out in terms of content aligns with my values. And then it's almost like a beacon for the right types of clients. That it doesn't anyone who works with clients understands how painful it is to work with a client that where you're not aligned from a fundamental values perspective.

SHAUNA: And it can, it can work both ways, right? Attracting the clients who are right fit and pushing away the clients who are, who are wrong. So that gives me peace of mind in terms of talking about and showing up in the way that I'm not. Just want to but need to as a business owner to get the right people in the door to work with us.

SHAUNA: Yeah. 

TAMI: I love that in your article. You also with each point, not with each of them. I don't, I don't know with each of them, but you do bring in some personal story, like working for an organization where you, you flat out had the conversation of why haven't you ever hired someone of color, you know, like that was a, you put that in your article, you put in, um, you know, representation in your campaigns and collateral, like, you know, We all have personal responsibility for what photos we choose to put in our ads, you know, or what photos we take.

TAMI: I just really loved that you included a lot of your own story, and I think that that's what really builds the feeling of trust with people reading it, is that you include your own story in there. I think a lot of leaders and a lot of content, everybody's trying to push thought leadership content out there that teaches something to somebody, but I Doesn't tie back to a personal experience that the creators had.

TAMI: So then how can they effectively communicate that kind of change that could come from it? Um, so the change that comes from using your story and writing this article, you got a few, what, speaking gigs. Did you get some on it? Like, tell me what it did for you on a person. So on a professional level, you just spoke to it a little bit.

TAMI: It's, it's, you know, people who are attracted to this type of values system And your type of, um, communication styles and whatnot will, will find you, but what did it do for you personally? 

SHAUNA: That's a great question. Personally, I really, I would say there was a, it was a catalyst moment for me personally, and the way that I show up as a, as a business owner and.

SHAUNA: The types of opportunities that came from that. And this might tie personally, professionally, you know, personally, professionally together. But I mean, we probably closed six figures in business that year from clients who saw that article and were like, you're it, you're our, you're our team, you're our person.

SHAUNA: And. For me to get that level of positive feedback from something that I had the, Oh shit, do I really want to post this moment before I hit go, I think gave me just a little bit of a nudge, a boost in terms of confidence to trust my own intuition of what's not just right for me morally and with my values, but right for the business and also the mark, the market that we're working in.

SHAUNA: And I would just say, yeah, really confidence and what I have to say in my point of view and perspective, and that I wasn't just speaking out into the wind. Oftentimes I think we post content and we maybe don't get Much of any response, a handful of comments, engagement. I always joke and say, like, I'm lucky if my mom like gives it a thumbs up and tells me that she likes it.

SHAUNA: Um, but to get a response from our community, from clients and potential clients, I've received. Press requests to speak on this topic since the article was published and really just putting value in my own point of view and perspective and the confidence that comes with that. 

TAMI: Yeah. I love that. I, um, I have a post it note around here, something that one of my friends wrote for me as a lovely reminder of like what you want and what you think actually does matter.

TAMI: Like it matters. Stop thinking it doesn't matter. Right. And I think that that's you, you heard loud and clear that what you deeply felt and believed mattered. And that you, you might be the first of hopefully many people to speak at it or to it. Um, I think it gives other people courage to do the same.

TAMI: I've been researching a lot on authenticity and one of the things is like the ripple effects of authenticity. Like you see somebody post really brave, vulnerable content. It almost gives. Like you as the consumer permission to do the same. So I just, I just really love that when people are just super bold and post something and then realize like, Oh yeah.

TAMI: Okay. Even though I almost threw up when I hit send, like it was good for me. It was good for everyone else. What tips would you give a company? If I, let's say I, I hired you a brand yourself and I really wanted to fix the systems, blah, blah, blah, but I wanted to take a stand. For diversity from a brand perspective.

TAMI: What, like, what would you come in from a also very white female? 

SHAUNA: Yeah. So I'm going to also draw from my PR background. So I have the company that I run now. We work in a little bit of a different space, but the majority of my background is in PR. I've got plenty of experience in crisis communications and what.

SHAUNA: I see work really well just from a practical standpoint in preparing your team and also preparing a communication strategy around how you approach these topics internally is that they really do need to resonate with what you stand for and your company values and It doesn't make sense for every company to talk about everything.

SHAUNA: So it probably would not make sense for me to talk about. Native American rights, because I have no personal experience in that. Not to say that I don't care, not to say that it's not important to me, but I'm probably not the voice that needs to be heard in that conversation. And when I see brands get this wrong is when they're speaking from a place that is not authentic to who they are and their, their experience and what they're bringing into the world.

SHAUNA: And so I think we can acknowledge and appreciate all of these different layers of diversity and voices, but there's a big difference between me talking from a first person point of view perspective on all of these different areas versus saying, Hey, this is important. So let me elevate someone else's voice.

SHAUNA: And I, I think first doing the work to understand what you feel confident and you have either the credentials or the firsthand perspective to speak about is. really powerful. And then secondarily kind of educating yourself on the different areas where maybe you're not the right voice to be speaking. So can you create allies with other, um, business owners with other organizations so that you can have much more of a holistic, um, viewpoint on this topic.

SHAUNA: Of diversity and inclusion and really just speaking about what is true to you. What's true to you as a founder, to your team, to your company values versus feeling like you need to and should talk about everything, right? I often call 

TAMI: that performative vulnerability. It's like the brands that put a rainbow up in June to support pride, but they don't.

TAMI: Have a single person on their leadership. And they'd never said anything before. They just are trying to get some engagement on their social media platforms. Yeah. One of the stands I've taken, cause I have some, you know, some personal experience and is, is like the mental health advocacy. Like I really think, you know, a drive towards more vulnerable content, it ties directly to the, you know, mental health and wellness of, Everyone who reads their Facebook or Instagram feeds, right?

TAMI: Like it's just, so that's something that I feel pretty confident and talking about. Plus I've had my fair share of therapy appointments to back it up. The other thing I tell people too, is it's great to tie back in personal stories, but make sure that you're sharing the scar and not the wound. Meaning like you've, you've gone far enough past what happened to you to not be emotionally triggered by it.

TAMI: Because if, if you're currently experiencing the trauma, the energy that you'll put out into the world is probably not. What you'd want to be like looking like your future self won't be super impressed. 

SHAUNA: Yeah. And I think that's also such an effective strategy for the people who are looking to toe the line between how they're showing up as a business owner or professional in this like vulnerability space, because you want, you still need to think about providing value, right.

SHAUNA: And that value doesn't necessarily need to be like how to, and all the tips, like we've talked about. It's incredibly powerful to share your learnings from personal experience and personal stories, but if you're even using like highly charged language or you're not thinking from a clear headed state because you're, you're still feeling emotional or you know, in the mix of the actual trauma or experience, your thinking is not going to be as potent and as clear.

SHAUNA: And so your, your message is not going to deliver those different aspects either. And I oftentimes, when we, when we see posts or that content where it is just feel like a little, a little like, Ooh, did that like miss the mark? If we see any type of content or if we posted any of that content, I would, I would say, oftentimes that's why even when we're doing like a crisis comms cleanup for a CEO who just got upset and tweeted something that they probably shouldn't have tweeted.

SHAUNA: It's coming from that emotionally charged place versus a clear measured head. Yeah. 

TAMI: Well, and that's like what, you know, I often talk to a couple of friends who get anxious about like conversations or heated conversations I've had. And it's that playback in your head. So if you're posting something and you, like you said, you're not clear on what you actually think about it.

TAMI: Like the playback in your head is going to be, Oh, should I have said that? Should I have said this? Like, I probably needed to wait to have that conversation. I, you know, like it's that energy. And I do think our content is a digital reflection of our energy. And I do think readers feel it. Like as woo woo as that may sound, I honestly, I feel, I think it's, it's pretty true and real like I can feel the authenticity in someone's content and I can feel the, the fake, you know, performative vulnerability in posts.

SHAUNA: Yeah, we're all, I would agree with that. 10 times over and we're all consuming so much content now that even if we don't recognize that that's what's going on, we all, I think, have this like BS meter at this point in time where we see something we read something and it doesn't just, it doesn't quite sit well with us and that's pretty much it.

SHAUNA: That's oftentimes why because it's, it's not authentic. It's not true. It's not vulnerable. And not every piece of content is going to be like life changing world changing. But, um, I think that's such an important perspective to share of just that. It fits, it hits differently energetically. 

TAMI: It does. I think it does.

TAMI: Yeah, for sure. For those of you that want to read Shana's article, we'll link it in the show notes. Um, I think everybody should, I think, even if you're not a PR or marketing communications, Professional. It has a lot of great tips in there on even just dialogue to have with people, especially if you're coming from a place of privilege, like, like I am, like I took, you know, took some nuggets from there that I could, I could use.

TAMI: Um, but what, what is it about candid content or authentic content that could change our industry or change how we think or use these platforms? 

SHAUNA: Yeah, I think as far as takeaways. One area that has been very helpful for me is getting back into almost like a writing or a journaling practice. And that has been so beneficial to connect back to even micro stories that I Forgot about or didn't realize that there was any type of lesson or value in them and just starting to Remember those and even if it's just as simple as hey, you're on a walk.

SHAUNA: You've got your head cleared. You're kind of just thinking decompressing Opening up your notes app on your phone and like just drafting like hey, you know Lesson learned, remember this story and starting to almost create a catalog of experiences that you can draw from. And when I'm creating content for our business, which it doesn't always happen where it's something that's just like charged, you know, flowing out of my fingertips, we all have to be present.

SHAUNA: Um, In social media and in marketing. So being able to look back on having those different experiences and stories and saying, okay, I'm about to post this blog entry or this social media post on X topic. Is there something personal that I can weave into this, whether it's something that I did wrong previously, uh, something that I've learned, one of my own kind of like success and, and triumphs that has been very helpful for me just from a practical standpoint.

SHAUNA: And then to the second part of your question of. What, how is this really going to shape and change and evolve our industry? I would go back to that point of confidence, especially for women professionals. I think that we have made strides in the last decades in terms of how openly we talk about perfectionism, imposter syndrome.

SHAUNA: Our ability to elevate to certain levels of leadership and not necessarily feel like we need to be perfect and have all of the answers, but this same practice of being authentic and being vulnerable, almost, in my experience, gives you a little bit of superpower and an edge and just that next level of confidence so that you can show up as, as a leader and really feel like you can back it up.

SHAUNA: Um, and I, I guess just reflecting for myself in the journey of, you know, perfectionism and imposter syndrome, it's like, These different pieces of content are like money in the bank when you are trying to have those proof points that you really do belong in the room and our stories are, you know, badges of honor and being able to share those and really root ourselves in those just provides that level of confidence.

TAMI: I really loved that advice. And I, I agree. I think the more we post, the more confident and brave we get. And then we realize our value. We start to realize it really. Reminded. Be reminded. Yeah. Um, the type of content that you were talking about, little micro stories or micro. Did you, is that what you call it?

TAMI: Micro stories? Yeah. Micro stories. Yeah. Sometimes call them pivot stories. Like for some of the bigger lessons, I think they're pivot stories. Um, I was given the tip to look through photos on my phone and just remember different like times in my life and maybe think of some lessons coming out of there.

TAMI: If you're speaking to a leader that hasn't included any personal stories in their content, what is that the advice you'd give them just to kind of go back and journal and look and yeah. 

SHAUNA: And I, I even think. Starting to write down your origin story is a helpful place to start. You know, we all have a bio, but if you think about, I love what you said, like those pivot stories, identifying what those are and starting with maybe three where you say here, we're like three key pivotal moments.

SHAUNA: In your, in your life and how you learned from them, grew from them, how they served as a catalyst moment to get where you are. I mean, it's such common like language and marketing that people remember stories and they resonate with stories above everything else. And I think if you can start to articulate what that personal thread throughout your professional personal journey journey has really been, people will remember that.

TAMI: I love it. Thank you so much, Shauna. 

SHAUNA: Thank you for having me. This is so great. Such a wonderful thing to remember and reminisce on and just have an opportunity to dig deeper and think about from a strategic and also just like a human centered place. So thank you. 

TAMI: Yeah. Yeah. I loved your article. I love our conversation and I think Yeah, I hope more people look at that zingy feeling and download something that they publish and it, you know, creates opportunities and opens doors and opens relationships and all sorts of things.

TAMI: The ripple effect. 

SHAUNA: Amen. Amen. All right. Where can people find you? LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. Just my name, Shauna Knuckles. I'm also on Instagram. Same, same name, same handle. Um, pretty active on both. So would love to connect with anyone there. 

TAMI: Awesome. 

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